Trigger Warning: This episode talks about sexual assault, harassment and violence. If you or someone you know needs support or advice, please call 1-800-656-HOPE to speak to a specialist. It's free, confidential and available 24/7.
Voice Memo 1: It’s like being jerked into a gross reality from being in a safe place.
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Voice Memo 2: Looking back at it now, it really pisses me off because it shows that I was definitely being sexually harassed and nobody said anything.
Voice Memo 3: It just made me feel gross, like I was a piece of meat.
Voice Memo 4: And I was too stunned to speak … what a creepy thing to say.
Voice Memo 5: I was too afraid to say the fuck you that was on my mind. I was too afraid to stand up for myself because I was standing in the street alone.
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Terra Lopez, Host: I'm Terra Lopez and “This Is What It Feels Like.”
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Terra: When you hear the term “catcalling,” what does it make you think of?
[Pop Culture montage begins:]
“You’re looking good baby, good enough to eat. Where you going?” - Sex and The City
“Check out that sweet piece, cause that body’s working overtime. Yeah, that’s one clock I’d like to punch all night long” - Saturday Night Live
“Look at this fine piece of ass all the way down the street here dog, that’s what I’m talking about, walk this way with that fine ass, yeah” - Key & Peele
Terra: I honestly kinda hate the word. I think it sounds too elementary — too light. You hear the term and you think of construction workers whistling at women in a big city. And that very idea that it only occurs in big cities causes real harm because it allows us to be in denial of the real and constant trauma female-presenting folks experience on a daily basis. So, all this to say, I will still use the term “catcalling” in this episode because it’s what we know it to be. But just know — I do not like that term.
I have witnessed the harm that catcalling causes women my entire life.
I remember as a kid, watching my mom constantly being harassed in public as we walked to the bus stop, at the movies, in the mall, at the park, at the local Foot Locker, at my basketball games, even at my elementary school.
And one night in a Taco Bell drive thru, a car full of men started yelling at her, trying to get her attention while she was trying to order. My mom yelled at them to stop and next thing she knew, they were bashing out the windows of her car and beating her and her friend with baseball bats. All because she wouldn’t give them her number.
I saw first-hand how experiencing catcalling on a consistent basis like that has severe impacts on your mental health — your confidence, self-esteem, and overall well-being. I mean, how could it not?
For this episode, we put a call out asking folks to share their own catcall experiences. And we got a lot of voice memos. Women shared their stories of being stalked, harassed, chased, assaulted and it happened everywhere: while doing laundry, walking their dog, watering their lawn, driving on the freeway or walking to their local liquor store.
Voice Memo 6: And so I'm wearing a shirt that has a button down shirt and it's buttoned up. And I'm just kind of enjoying my nice little walk to the bodega. And this man stops. He's walking towards me and he stops and he goes, ‘Hey, nice little nipples.’ And I was too stunned to speak. I mean, what a creepy thing to say. So I like, crossed my arms to cover my breasts, and I just look at him and then, like, swiftly walk away.
Terra: There were stories after stories like this one.
Voice Memo 7: Some guy rides by on his bike. And he's literally maybe like three feet from me as he rides down the center of the road and says to me, ‘That's a nice ass,’ but doesn't say it with a smile on his face, doesn't say it even flirty like. He literally says it with this mean look on his face. Like, that's a nice ass. Like, he intensely says it at me, not even to me, but like at me.
Terra: Around five years ago, I was sitting in on my partner’s book club and the topic of catcalling was brought up. The book club was primarily a space for women and non-binary folks to get together and talk about what inspired us, what we were struggling with, and sometimes we’d end up talking about books. One night, everyone started going around the room, sharing their own experiences.
Hearing those stories that night stuck with me and inspired me to try to do something about it — so I sketched out an idea on a napkin. It was an idea for an art installation that would put men on the opposing side of catcalling — face-to-face with their own behavior. But we’ll get into that a little later.
I wanted to go back to the book club and share some of the voice memo responses with them. I wanted to hear what they thought but I also wanted to know if they were still experiencing this type of harassment on a daily basis? And if so, how do they get through it?
From CapRadio, “This Is What It Feels Like,” where we share stories directly from voices that have been historically overlooked.
Welcome to “This Is What It Feels Like…to be Catcalled.”
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Claire: It feels like a little reunion. Like, a little book club.
Terra: I know!
Kelsie: I know, Hi everyone!
Kailyn: Hello!
Terra: It truly has been years. Like, when was the last book?
Kelsie: 2017.
Terra: Was it really? That’s wild.
Claire: Yeah, I’m going to be honest that I never actually fully read any of the books.
Kelsie: It was about community.
Terra: It really was.
Claire: It felt great. And it felt like a safe space. And I felt like people really got, it felt really safe.
Terra: Claire White, Kaiyln Topper, Kelsie Hastie and I all reconnected one night over Zoom. It had been years — five years — since the book club had gathered together. At its peak, we had more than 40 women and non-binary folks packed in our tiny West Sacramento living room every week.
Kelsie: So I was living in LA. This was maybe 2018.
Terra: That’s Kelsie. She’s my partner and the one who started the book club. And she’s describing an afternoon where I had just witnessed a really bad bike accident. A man had crashed his bike in a super busy intersection and was unconscious and bleeding in the middle of the street. I called her to come help since it was right around the corner from our home.
Kelsie: And it was like a very intense, traumatic, emotional situation. And so this gentleman was helped into the ambulance and I was walking to where I had parked my car. And as I'm crossing this big intersection, there is a car of men who just began harassing me and catcalling me and saying things about my body, saying what they wanted to do to my body. And I was so just enraged from the experience that I just experienced and how emotionally heightened everything was just kind of heightened in my body.
Terra: Here’s a woman who dropped everything to go help a stranger on the street and then was immediately harassed by a group of men in front of a bunch of people and nobody stepped in to say anything.
Kelsie: And I did something that I probably typically wouldn't do and that I wouldn't necessarily recommend. But I turned around and I walked right up to their window and I just kind of went off on them. And I think I just had this surge of energy rushing through me that led me to do that. And as I walked away, I was reflecting on how dangerous that was and how that's not necessarily something that I would typically do, but I think I had left this situation where it just became kind of this cyclical thought in my brain of women are just constantly giving of themselves, they're just constantly caring for other people, and they can walk away from a situation in which they have just cared for a stranger and instantly be harassed and instantly then be made to feel like they are unsafe and, like, who takes care of us? And I think in that moment, I just felt like I had to take care of myself.
Terra: What Kelsie experienced is more in line with what you think of when you hear the term catcalling, woman on the street harassed by strangers, right? But Claire and Kailyn brought up experiences that I believe don’t get talked about enough — situations with co-workers or even with people that you’re dating.
Terra: Claire, does that resonate at all with you?
Claire: Yeah, I mean, I was thinking, like, for me, it's even more humiliating when you know somebody and they sexually harass you and then you might have a working relationship with them. And I've also had experiences. These have been more prevalent for me than just, like, someone shouting at me on the street where I've been dating someone or interested in someone, and then they've pressured me sexually. And whether or not I actually wanted to do something, I felt like I should to keep myself safe because, hey, give them this and that way it's like almost having control of the situation.
Terra: Kailyn, does anything come to mind? Catcall experience, a personal one or maybe you witnessed?
Kailyn: One time my friend called after one of our friends had passed. And I came out of- I finished my work shift and came out of work crying. And somebody came by and was like, ‘Oh, you should be smiling. Why aren't you smiling?’ Particularly I've traveled a lot or walking around, and there's so many little comments that you just let slide, like, ‘oh, that was just like an old man being awkward. He gave me a flower and kissed me on the cheek, whatever kind of sweet.’ Or like, ‘that person just winked at me, but harmless.’ And I just traveled for the first time with my now husband, and he was like, ‘What just happened? What just happened?’ Like, so aggravated by so many things that were happening that I would have never even just become numb to.
Terra: If you are a female-presenting person, you know what Kailyn is talking about. I can’t even begin to tell you how many times I’ve been told to smile more. But it’s when Kailyn starts talking about her experiences working in retail that really strikes me. Because I’ve been there - too many times.
Kailyn: Yeah, I experienced so much of it at work. I've been at booths before, like in the middle of a store in broad daylight and have people come up and asked me what I was doing there. And I'd start talking and they'd interrupt me and be like, ‘oh, I just came to look at you. I don't even care what you have to say.’ There's like, nothing you can do. Half the time I just laugh or quit my job.
Terra: But have you quit jobs due to not feeling safe?
Kailyn: Yeah, absolutely.
Terra: In 2017 I created an art installation called “THIS IS WHAT IT FEELS LIKE.” It was an interactive exhibit that put cis-men on the opposing side of catcalling.
I wanted to see how men would react if they experienced what female-presenting folks experience on a daily basis. I wanted to hear men catcall other men.
[Male catcall montage begins]
“Hey, someone’s acknowledging you. You are beautiful. Be grateful!”
“Hey Baby, how’s it going? How are you?
“What’s your problem? Fuck you, you snobby bitch!”
“You should smile more.”
“You can suck my dick.”
“Don’t you like being complimented?”
“You should smile more.”
“I guess you’re not that..”
“How are you, sweetie?”
“Hey, hey! Excuse me! Hey, sweetheart! What, we can’t be friends? What you don’t speak?”
“Don’t you like being complimented?!”
“Hey what’s up? How are you sweetie?”
“Fuck you! Snobby bitch!”
[Transition music begins]
Terra: The idea was pretty simple. You walk through a dark hallway, then you hear what a lot of female-presenting folks have to hear on a daily basis.We sourced the catcalls directly from women in the community by asking them about their specific experiences.
And honestly the exhibit got a lot of media attention, and public attention. But honestly, it was the responses from men that meant the most to me. Because they were coming out of the exhibit in tears. Some wanted to apologize and process their past actions or inaction. Some were in disbelief. And some were grateful to be let into our world.
And so many women felt validated. A lot of them would nod their heads as they walked out. Or sigh and walk away. One woman in her 70’s came out in tears, and thanked us because it was the first time in her life that she finally felt heard.
We’ll be right back.
[Transition music swells and ends]
[Sponsorship break]
Voice Memo 8: On top of just feeling gross and dehumanized, it makes me feel sexualized in a way that I didn’t consent to. And it makes me feel like everybody around me is just going to clock me as a woman and as someone feminine and because of that, as a target. And that’s just endlessly frustrating.
Voice Memo 9: I took it as a compliment until I actually got sexually assaulted by one of the guys on the Varsity boys track team.
Voice Memo 10: And I remember thinking about how that person was not trying to flirt with me, connect with me, even hook up with me, even trying to — they weren’t attempting any sort of connection. Didn’t seem to have any fucking idea in their mind it seemed that there would even actually be a favorable result from that. They were literally violating me, was the way that it felt. They were saying “I’m using your body against you.”
Terra: These snippets are from some of the voice memos that we received from the callout we made earlier this year. I spent a lot of time listening to all of them. And it was hard. Hearing women recall daily experiences like these over and over, knowing that I had my own stories was heavy.
Terra: What is the mental toll of experiencing this on a day to day basis for each of you? Claire, how are you feeling? You're nodding your head.
Claire: It diminishes our quality of life. And I was saying to a friend, I don't know, a few months ago, I was like, I'm so angry because I'm paying for therapy. I'm paying for therapy. I've been in therapy for two years. And there are other things I need therapy for, but it's sexual assault and harassment and low self esteem, anxiety. All of those things are a byproduct of a society in which we're not valued as much as men. I guess what I'm trying to say is that part of male entitlement and violence and all of that being so pervasive, it makes me feel like a responsibility to change that norm. And so it puts so much pressure on us, on folks who we shouldn't have all the responsibility. We shouldn't have to pave the way. It should be a collective effort. Every single person working for all of us to be safe.
Terra: Do you think men think about these things?
Claire: I think that my partner does, because I talk about these things all the time… I think that there are some men who do, but I definitely think that a lot don't.
Kelsie: I move through the world in a different way than my three brothers do, for instance. I don't know if men get it. I don't know if men have the opportunity to get it. Should they be faulted for that? No. But can we have conversations and can we start to shift our society in a way where we have empathy and accountability in these things?
Terra: Kailyn tells us about a time she traveled to Egypt with her husband, which is where he was born. Her husband was shocked to see how she was being harassed.
Kailyn: And there were a couple of times where he did check people where he was just like, hey, man, what was that? And they'd be like, you're right, I'm sorry.
Terra: She says that men there interact with each other differently - they’re able to hold one another accountable if they cross a boundary.
Kailyn: And there were a couple of times where he did check people where he was just like, hey, man, what was that? And they'd be like, you're right, I'm sorry. And I couldn't even imagine the scenario of that happening here. It would turn into a fight. I feel like we have to wait for something traumatic to happen to hold people accountable for a little bit of behavior.
Terra: In our conversation, all three women said that they were children — 6, 11, 5 years old when they first realized they weren’t safe. And I realized that I was around that early age too when I understood that I couldn’t move about the world like my brother could, that things were different for me. The stakes were higher.
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Voice Memo 11: The first time I was catcalled, I was 12 years old. It was just such an impactful moment and to this day, I still don’t feel comfortable wearing clothing that is more feminine, “feminine” or revealing because I feel like even if I’m holding my own femininity or my own grace in that, I still feel like it’s, it’s constantly going to be taken away.”
Voice Memo 12: While we were walking down the street, two grown men in a truck — the passenger leaned out the window and yelled “Dude, fuck her! I would!” and I was only 13 years old.
Terra: During the exhibit, we had a lot of men come up to us asking us where the line was between giving a compliment and harassment. Some of those conversations got a bit heated but a lot of them were powerful — they were conversations that I felt expanded a lot of men’s understanding on the question.
Claire: I don't know where the line is. I think that the phrasing, like, how literally your word choice is important and how close you are, like, how close is your body to that person? Why are you giving–do you have an ulterior motive? I think all of those are factors and whether it would be appropriate to give someone a compliment.
Kelsie: Claire, you're so right. It's the language used, the proximity of our bodies, and we're so intuitive when it comes to those things. The boundary is probably personal for everyone. And I think a lot of it, too, is men taking initiative and doing the work. We have a wealth of information at our fingertips. I would love to have a man in my life be like, yeah, I picked up Roxanne Gay. I'm just like, reading this book or, yeah, like, I'm reading Audre Lorde or and I just don't necessarily see that happening. Even the good men.
Terra: Also during the exhibit, the word “intention” seemed to get thrown around a lot. There were men approaching me, explaining that it wasn't their intention to cause harm or to make women feel unsafe. And while I’m sure that was true for most of them, there are enough articles out there explaining how even good-intended people can still cause a great deal of harm.
Kelsie: I do think that intention can be tricky because I think that people can say that they're well-intentioned and then use that against you, like, ‘Well, I didn't mean it that way.’
Claire: Yeah, I mean, I think the impact outweighs the intent always.
Kailyn: A big part of it, too, is also what you intend from me, because, like, a lot of it's like, ‘Oh, I intend to make you smile. Like, I intend to, like, make your day better.’ And, like, I don't need you to do that. Like, if you're saying something to me with the intention that garners my response, and if I don't respond the way you want that, then it changes. Then that's not, like, a compliment.
[Transitional music]
Voice Memo 13: So, I was walking down Mission Street and if you are a female-presenting person walking down Mission Street, there’s probably like a 75% chance that you’re going to get catcalled.”
Voice Memo 14: I was walking home a few years ago from the store. I had a mop that I was really excited about”.
Voice Memo 15: I was walking down my street and a man was screaming at me from his car. I had my headphones in and I was trying my best not to respond, react. And he followed me for about 2 blocks. Then I turn the corner and he still follows me. And something comes my way from the car, because it was thrown, and it was a glass bottle.”
Terra: I wanted to share with the book club one of the voice memos that we had received from a woman named Caitlin in West Virginia.
Voice Memo 16: It is really hot in West Virginia at the start of the year. So in some practices, as everyone’s on the track where you're working really hard, girls on my team would take off their T-shirt and just run in their shorts and sports bras. And this is really where the trouble began, because the first couple of days we did that, the football players started catcalling us as we were going around the oval. So I eventually complained to my coach about it, and my coach was someone who didn't really want to be the cross-country coach. He wanted to be the football coach, so he didn't do anything about it. So I then complained to our principal, who was a distance runner himself. He was a marathoner, and he said he would do something about it. So the next practice we had, where we were at the track, there was a new rule and it was that girls had to wear our shirts whenever we were practicing on school property. And I immediately was like, ‘Well, the boys have to wear them too. It's unfair if just the girls have to wear shirts.’ So we still got catcalled after that by the football players. It didn't seem like anyone had ever intervened and told them to stop harassing us. And all of us were hot and miserable because we had to wear, you know, shirts while we were running when it was like 90 degrees and very humid.
Terra: This could have been a teachable moment for everyone involved! The principal could have held the football players accountable, the girls on the track team would have then felt heard and validated, and honestly the principal would have been a hero to that track team.
Kelsie: Before they even mentioned how the school responded, on all three of our faces I feel like all three of us knew what was coming. That it wasn't going to be, you know it wasn’t going to be “alright football players stop catcalling”, it was going to be all girls must wear T-shirts and I was watching both Kailyn and Claire — your faces and all three of us were like “YEP”. Like, before it was even said, we all knew.
Terra: What would make public spaces safer? Like, is there anything men or other folks could do? What is a space that is holding folks accountable? What does that look like?
Claire: I think that it has to start with how you raise your children two years old, three years old, teaching them about consent. It's a conversation, and I think that's where it starts, is literally having conversations. And one of my friends was reading Bell Hooks a few years ago. I remember that she was talking about this excerpt that really hit home for her and it was about how the patriarchy harms men too. Toxic masculinity harms men because they're repressing their emotions. They don't feel safe with their emotions. And so they're denying themselves, like healing really, right? And so by doing that, they are coming from this place where they can't give what they don't allow themselves to have with others. Like they can't give empathy, they can't give. And so it's perpetually hurting them and everybody else, especially women and femme-presenting folks.
Kailyn: And also realizing that it's always going to be a thing. Like I don't think you can solve it, especially if it's coming from a place that like when people are hurt in a certain way or are suppressed in a certain way, things are going to happen. And so I can't pretend that there's going to be like an amount of conversations we could have that would stop one person from still being that guy. But it would make me feel safer if I knew that everyone else was rallying around making sure that they kept people safe from that guy and got that person whatever they needed to get help.
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Terra: Look, I know that this is not going to magically change overnight. Like Kailyn said, this is always going to be a thing. But my hope is that maybe some man listening to this episode is going to think twice about his behaviors moving forward. He might even share this episode with a friend. Or he might even step in and do the right thing if he finds himself in a position where an important decision has to be made, just like that principal was. Because we all deserve to live our lives the best that we can and to have a chance at that, we all deserve to feel safe. My hope is that we’ll get there someday.
I want to thank Claire, Kailyn, and Kelsie from Femme Power Book Club for their vulnerability and openness to discuss complex stuff and for sharing their own personal experiences with us.
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Terra: If you want to learn more about how you can be a better advocate for women’s safety or if you or a loved one needs support, you can find a list of recommended resources in our show notes.
[Theme Music up and out]
Terra: On the next episode of “This Is What It Feels Like:”
Glenna: What was the best day of my life, honey? The day I was born, honey. [laughter]
Terra: I speak to a 106-year-old piano player named Glenna about the meaning of life, what her daily routine looks like and what brings her joy at her age.
Terra: This Is What It Feels Like Is a production of CapRadio. Hosted and produced by me – Terra Lopez.
Jen Picard produced and edited the show. Sally Longenecker is our executive producer.
Paul Conley is our sound designer.
Original theme song and music produced by Wes Jones.
Chris Bruno is in charge of marketing. Our designs were created by Marissa Espiritu. Renee Thompson is our Digital Products Manager.
We had input on this episode from: Jamison Henninger, Mo’Nique, and Ebony Ava Harper.
I want to thank Elizah Clareborne Crosby, Romeo Augistine, and Machu for sharing their powerful stories with us.
Lastly, I want to thank Carl & Sue Miller whose generous gift was instrumental in making this podcast come to life.
If you want to make sure you don’t miss any episodes, follow or subscribe to this podcast. For photos of our guests and more information, visit capradio.org/feels.
Thanks for listening to “This Is What It Feels Like.”