Nathalie Joachim: I feel in some way we're all a little, like, unbothered by what's happening now. I mean, it's like a classic black female experience. We're like, ‘Yeah, we've been working this hard for a long time. We've been having to be exceptional for a really long time, and we're glad that you're all noticing now.’ We are going to like, you know, mark these emails, read and move on because we actually do have a lot of work to do. Still.
Majel Connery: From CapRadio, this is A Music of Their Own, an interview podcast about women in music. We hear stories of survival and perseverance, and we explore why being a woman in music is so different from being a man. The women I interview here are extraordinary because they are making it. They are the ones who have risen to the top of their field against the odds. And as a woman in music myself, I want to understand what they are doing that makes them different, that makes them stand out. I'm your host, Majel Connery, and this is A Music of Their Own from CapRadio. We'll be right.
[Theme Music starts: “We Need a Room,” Sky Creature]
Majel Connery: Welcome back to A Music of Their Own from CapRadio. I'm Majel Connery. My guest on this podcast is flutist, composer and vocalist Nathalie Joachim. She's a co-founder of the flute duo Flutronix and has appeared on big stages like Carnegie Hall, Big Year Festival, the Kimmel Center and Alice Tully Hall. As a composer, her album, Fanm d'Ayiti, was nominated for a Grammy and has been performed by the Saint Louis Symphony and the Oregon Symphony. She also has current commissions with Roomful of Teeth, So Percussion and the Boston Lyric Opera. And Nathalie recently joined the composition faculty at Princeton University.
[Theme Music ends: “We Need a Room,” Sky Creature]
[Music starts: “Papa Loko”]
Majel Connery: Nathalie is a very successful black woman artist, and in the wake of #MeToo and the pandemic, she experienced a massive influx of work and recognition. That might not surprise you, but her reaction to this sudden wave of attention provides a very specific window onto the black female experience in classical music today. And that is where we'll begin.
We live in this crazy world now that didn't exist 20 years ago. In the world, 20 years ago. Being a woman and being black would have meant that you got passed over like it was a non qualification. And now we live in this world where that's cool. Do you have any resentment about that? Like, do you when opportunities come your way or are you just like, bring it?
Nathalie Joachim: There was like this point in the pandemic where myself and other black female composers specifically and other black female musicians, there was this point during, you know, the initial part of this pandemic, I keep saying during the pandemic is still happening. But so, like in the initial phase, of course, was when we all kind of had this hotline going because it was just so crazy. Like our inboxes inundated, our voicemails, like just packed. You couldn't even take voicemails anymore with people who, like, suddenly, suddenly wanting to hire you for everything and anything that they could possibly think of. And I think that, like the funniest part about all of the phone calls was just like the strange notion that all of these people actually believed that none of us had work.
You know, like now we even have time to do any of these things. Like, all of these people were like, I want to commission you, but it's due next week. And I'm like, okay, there's like a years long wait for, for actually like all of the people in this hotline and this moment. So like, I'm confused by that. And honestly, I will say at this moment, I think I could. I can say that like much of our success and like being kind of overbooked in the moment came from our need to be as versatile and innovative in how we were going to live lives by our own design. And that proved to be a true strength for all of us. In the midst of that early moment of the pandemic, you think of so many musicians without work who, you know, also couldn't pivot. And all we all have been doing for so long is pivoting and really leveraging every single piece of what we have and what we can offer and what we can do.
And I think that that's true of black women, period. You know, like in this world, I think it's definitely true of lots of creators and artists of color for sure, that we are used to making so much out of nothing at all, you know. And so when the moment came to have to pivot to, you know, doing things online and how's your publishing going and how can you do performances and what else can you do? Can you teach? Can you? Like most of us could say yes to all of those things pretty easily because we've been hustling so hard, because so many of those opportunities prior to this moment were few and far between.
Really and truly. Like, I invite everybody listening to this to think of the black female artists that you know. I would say that the vast majority that come to mind for me, especially when we're talking about just classical music, most of them excel at many things, many more than one thing, and are actually known for many more than one thing. Right? There's like very few of us who are like, I'm just a soloist, and that's all I do, you know what I mean? Like, we don't have that luxury. We never have. And so I think it was funny because there was this like hotline of all of us, kind of like calling each other, being like, you know, I just spoke to so-and-so and maybe like, you know, I just spoke to so-and-so. And we're all feeling the same way, looking at our inboxes, shaking our heads because we're like people, what we're not going to do is try to tire us all out because this is also like the first moment that any of us has even thought about resting. So what you're going to have to do is get in line, understand that yesterday's price is no longer today's price.
Majel Connery: Nice
Nathalie Joachim: I feel in some way we're all a little like unbothered by what's happening now. I mean, it's like a classic black female experience. We're like, Yeah, we've been working this hard for a long time. We've been having to be exceptional for a really long time, and we're glad that you're all noticing now. We are going to like, you know, mark these emails as read and move on because we actually do have a lot of work to do still. You know.
Majel Connery: Your attitude toward this is so awesome. I mean, on one hand, it's making me realize the ignorance of the organizations is all the more breathtaking. Like it that they thought they were giving you a leg up and you're like, I'm sorry, we've been killing it for years. How do you think you even know who we are? Like, how do you think our Google searches right where it is? Right. That makes me even sadder. But I do feel really excited that you're like, taking it in stride and that you don't question the opportunities.
Nathalie Joachim: I will add to that that that's like also kind of what's been beautiful in finding this camaraderie with other black female composers and musicians and other women of color working in this field is that there's just like such an awesome sense of sisterhood that, like, we are all kind of like in this together. It seems in some way kind of beautiful that we've gotten beyond the notion that, like, I think there was a time where it was like there was only room for one of us, you know? And so, like, if one of us got it, that meant like, oh, the rest of us better move on to the next, you know, like, and now it's sort of like that. There isn't this sense of, like, competition, of like this is mine. I'm super protective. We're all so supportive of one another. But that feels like maybe like the dopest of all at this moment. Like, we're not in competition with each other. We're in competition with ourselves.
[Music starts: “Life Lines”]
Majel Connery: You're hearing "Life Lines" by Nathalie's flute duo Flutronix. More from our conversation after this quick break.
[Music ends: “Life Lines”]
Majel Connery: Welcome back to A Music of Their Own, a podcast from CapRadio about women making it in classical music. I'm Majel Connery
[Music starts: "Dam Mwen Yo"]
Majel Connery: This is an excerpt from a track from Forward Music Project 1.0, an album by cellist Amanda Gookin. Amanda commissioned all female composers for this album. And Nathalie's track "Dam Mwen Yo" opens the album. You'll hear Nathalie's sampled voice here alongside Gookin's cello. This track fascinates me because it presents a feeling of repose and activity at the same time. Nathalie's voice is super laid back and looped, so it has this soothing quality. But we're also keeping track mentally of multiple layers of activity between the various samples and the cello part. It's like two children playing in parallel, but two different things. There's a sense of togetherness and also a sense of individuality.
[Music ends: "Dam Mwen Yo”]
Majel Connery: In this next segment, Nathalie and I talk a bit about her tenure with Chicago-based ensemble Eighth Blackbird. Full disclosure, I have flown a flag for this ensemble for many years, and I'm a huge fan. But when Nathalie became their flutist, it was a major event. And not just for her, but for the organization as the only black woman in a white ensemble. She became super visible overnight. But as with all firsts, things don't always go that well. The classical music world is very white, period. But it's important not to just state that if we're going to get better at this, it's important to understand what that struggle looks like pragmatically on the ground level. And Nathalie's experience with this gives us real insight into what we're facing.
So, Nathalie, I want to talk about Eighth Blackbird. When you joined the ensemble, I was super aware of this event, partly because I knew Tim Monro, their outgoing flutist who is this tall, lovely, White, Australian guy. And also because when you joined the group, everything about how they presented themselves visually changed. There are a couple pictures where it's not just that you are suddenly in Eighth Blackbird. It's kind of like you're the frontwoman for Eighth Blackbird. You are front and center in their photography and you're looking really amazing. But I remember thinking, This is a great look for Eighth Blackbird. I wonder how Nathalie feels about this. Like, are you cool with being the centerpiece of Eighth Blackbird now?
Nathalie Joachim: I will say that I don't know how well that went over that was not planned. I don't think that was not intentional on the group's part. I will say, and I'm not sure. I think it's safe to say that I don't think it went over so well with everyone involved. I think that that was like I think it was a fluke. Honestly, if I'm telling the real story is that the photographer, I think, just was excited about me being there and and really.
Majel Connery: Photographer was like hot black chick, you move to the middle.
Nathalie Joachim: I mean, not, you know, it wasn't that crude or anything. I don't think it was meant in that way at all. It didn't seem that way, but I think it was just like.
Majel Connery: But how can it not?
Nathalie Joachim: Oh. I don't know. I, I, I just remember feeling really, I was like, this is so awkward because I'm just, you know, I'm brand new here. Yeah. And most of the people in this group have dedicated their entire lives to this. And the fact that this photographer tells me to step forward one more time, one more time, and also I'm just like I'm just looking like myself. I'm really not trying to do this, you know?
Majel Connery: Sure.
Nathalie Joachim: So I remember feeling away when the photos came out. Only for that. I just felt embarrassed that I felt I didn't feel tokenized. I definitely felt some sort of shame that, you know, it seemed like I was trying to steal the spotlight in some way, which I totally was not. Because, you know, I don't even claim Eighth Blackbird as my own. I don't mean, in terms of, like, my own creation or my vision or. It really wasn't. It was for sure, a project that I participated in that was in support of other people's visions, you know what I mean? And so it's different when you see like Alison and I looking amazing in our Flutronix photos because like that's us, it's about us and it should be. And you know, I know that if we added a third member of Flutronix and they were in the front of all the photos, I would probably feel the way about it too. So yeah, you know, but I can say this, the photos did not make me feel tokenized. I mean, I was embarrassed because I was like, I didn't plan this. I don't know why I'm in the middle. I have no idea.
The experience itself, I mean, I had plenty of experiences in the group that definitely made me feel tokenized or in ways that were, I think, inappropriate. And also, you know, it is true that I am the only black person to have ever been employed by the organization period before that point, you know. And so like, as happens when you were the only or the first, a lot of inappropriate stuff is often said or, you know, thinking that you're suddenly eligible to apply for grants because of my blackness being told that it was eighth blackbird who was putting me on these concert hall stages, which completely disregards an entire career that I had had prior to being there. And in fact, now most people don't know me because of Eighth Blackbird. Actually, even when I was in the group, a lot of people didn't even know I was in the group. I think if it wasn't for those photos, you know, we would often show up at venues that they had played in previous years, and Tim's name would still be in the program even after I'd been in the group for four years, you know. And so, yeah, so like I do think that my experience inside the group was definitely different than what was happening outside. You know, like I think that in some way there was more discussion than I would have liked around the group itself, offering me some sense of validity in my career, which is just, you know, absurd. I will say that completely. Honestly, that I do think is absurd. As if, because I wasn't picked from under a rock, you know, and also I earned that position, quite frankly.
Majel Connery: So it sounds like there were I mean, you don't need to go into details, but it sounds like there were a series of things, both in terms of, Like the way that it was understood somehow within the group that they were like giving you a shot that you might not otherwise have had. But then also the sense that they were suddenly eligible to be called like a BIPOC ensemble or something. Yeah, I can definitely see how that would be like, whoa. I mean, that had not even occurred to me. I see why it would occur to them. Like, as a new music ensemble, gosh, is it hard to find money. Like I can get it on one level why they would be like, Oh shoot, does this open up certain avenues of funding? But like, do they check in with you on that?
Nathalie Joachim: They, I wasn't always checked in about and when I was, you know, I made my own sense of it clear in the moment that, you know. I don't believe that that's actually a part of your mission, and I don't think it's a part of your identity at all. I am not a part of your identity, actually, you know, and I made sure to make that clear. And there were definitely contentious conversations around that. And I don't think that that's unique to them. I think that is something that a lot of black people, particularly and other people of color, particularly in this moment, are experiencing a lot of.
Majel Connery: Right. Like, I'm sorry, but you don't get to borrow my identity as your identity.
Nathalie Joachim: Right, right, right, right.
[Music starts: "Stacked”]
Majel Connery: Just a quick FYI that we reached out to Eighth Blackbird about this story and they declined to comment.
This track is called "Stacked," and it's from Nathalie's duo Flutronix with Alison Loggins Hall. This ensemble has been a lifeline for Nathalie. She and Alison are both black woman composers with this really niche excitement about the possibilities of combining flute and electronics. What I like about Flutronix - and about this track in particular - is that I think many people outside of the classical world might regard flute as this like wimpy instrument. But in Flutronix, flutes are not wimpy. The flute is this agile, robust instrument that when stacked can be orchestral. And Nathalie and Alison together are creating something like maximum flute here. And like a lot of Nathalie's music. There's a level of activity that you cannot necessarily track on a first listen. It's like a choose your own adventure. There's multiple stories going on.
[Music ends: "Stacked”]
Majel Connery: In this final segment of our conversation, Nathalie and I talk about her album, Fanm d'Ayiti. The album is a kind of tribute to Haiti, where Nathalie's family is from, and to Haitian female singers, many of whom Nathalie did recorded interviews with and that appear as field recordings on the album.
[Music starts: "Resevwa Li"]
Majel Connery: Nathalie got a lot of attention for this album and a Grammy nomination. My question for Nathalie was, okay, you had this huge success. Now what?
You have this magnum opus, the thing that you are best known for. And I wonder if you have any fears about this thing coming to dominate perception of you and coming to dominate your identity. And I wonder if you are finding that it's in any way holding you back from like a better or a different version of yourself, or if you find yourself expecting yourself to reproduce that kind of idiom over and over again. Does that come up for you?
Nathalie Joachim: Not really. I mean, obviously, our careers happen in waves, right? Like, there are times when you're in a peak and there are times when you're in a valley and there's always work being done. And the less and so, you know, everybody has their own insecurities, like if everybody going to forget about me. The Grammys were so long ago, you know, like, I really like cause you're like, does anybody even know who I am? And especially in the age of, like, social media, we're like, look at everybody doing everything else. I'm just sitting here orchestrating, wah wah? So, you know, like, that's real. I'm human. So I feel that, of course. But gosh, you know, Fanm d'Ayiti in so many ways, the intention behind the work and the making of the work was so not about me, you know what I mean? And so in that sense, it just, like, felt like for me that I had to, like, deliver in honor of my entire ancestry, in honor of Haitian people, in honor of the women who were, like, generous enough with their spirit and their time to to give to the making and the research and the making of the foundation of this work and the spirit of Haitian people and really capturing that. Like that was on my back and on my shoulders as I was releasing that project.
Of course, this beautiful byproduct, like for so much of the process, I was like leaving myself out of it. And it wasn't until towards the very end that I realized that this is like, it's so much about me and it's so much of me, you know, and that that's really true. But I feel like because the genesis of the work wasn't that I don't feel this deep desire to continue recreating it.
So I don't know, is the next one going to be a Grammy winner or even nominated? Is anybody going to listen to it on Spotify? Who knows? I have no idea, but I'm still making nonetheless win. And that feels good. And I just can't be overwhelmed by this notion that, you know, I think if you're just terrified that you're not going to make a masterpiece, you're just not going to be creating. So if I shift my focus from making the next piece be even more phenomenal, all of the ways, you know, like and bigger and better and like, you know, winning all of the awards, like I'm going to win six Grammys, you know, like I think if you let go of that and just say, am I telling true stories with this work that I'm sharing? Am I telling a true story of myself? Am I creating my favorite kind of story, which is the kind of story where people can see themselves within it?
You know, I just premiered this funny piece at Carnegie Hall in a few weeks ago, feels like two lifetimes ago, but just a few weeks ago, with So Percussion, it's a quartet that I wrote for them, but they are also triggering samples of my own voice. And for me, it was it was it was totally a pandemic piece. And there is something so funny about it. It's called "Note to Self," and there are three movements with very little text, actually. The first movement is called much more, and the only text is I'm supposed to be doing so much more.
[Music starts: "Note to Self”]
Nathalie Joachim: The second movement is called “Maybe.” And the only text is "maybe if I take a nap, just 20 minutes.”
[Music switches movements: “Note to Self”]
Nathalie Joachim: And then the third movement is called “Motivated.” It's kind of like this manic expression. And the only words are "I'm feeling motivated." And it was so funny because you can tell an amazing story with no words at all, as we know, but with very few words, you can also really like shift people's understanding of of the meaning of something and in your own understanding of that.
[Music continues: "Note to Self”]
Nathalie Joachim: It was kind of amazing, you know, leaving the hall afterwards and having so many people just turn to me and say, like, I just feel like you took the entire pandemic, like you said. What I couldn't say so simply, which is just like that was everybody sort of like inner loop while we were all sort of like cooped up inside, like, what am I supposed to be doing with my life? And like, maybe I just need to rest a little bit, but also need to be doing more. I know.
Majel Connery: That's awesome.
Nathalie Joachim: Yeah. So I think that, like, it's true. Like the thing that I walk, like the work is funny. I mean, if you take that piece and put it next to Fanm d'Ayiti. I mean, it's funny to me because just they're very, very different. But in some sense, you know, they're they're really based on that same premise. And I think that that's really what I learned from that project. So I don't know if anything else that I ever make is going to be that poignant or a masterpiece. But I'm committed to storytelling. I enjoy it. And I think that it's important for us to see ourselves in these ways, because I do think that like just that response from people that is like, you know, I spent all these months trying to like articulate how I felt in that piece, really just sort of like tied it up in a neat bow, you know, like if I, if I could just play that for everyone and be like, this is how the past 18 months have been for me.
[Music ends: “Note to Self”]
[Music starts: "Resevwa Li”]
Majel Connery: "Resevwa Li" is the third part of “Suite Pou Dantan,” which is this little mini work inside of Nathalie's Fanm d'Ayiti album with the Spektral Quartet. To me, this track is very Nathalie. There are a few separate lines a looping field recording of a children's choir, a cello, a violin, and Nathalie's own voice writing on top of it all. All the lines play beautifully together, but also have a sense of contented independence. When I see that this track is very Nathalie, what I mean is that Nathalie has a brand. Part of this is her voice, but it's also a style that is totally unique to her. I think it's one of the things that has made Nathalie's work so attractive to people. You can really put your finger on it. You can say, I think I recognize that music. That must be Nathalie Joachim. And that is a pretty amazing accomplishment. It's probably also the reason that people are always trying to claim credit for her. There's a real thing there to take credit for. But of course, Nathalie is the only person responsible for what she built. She built her music. She built her career, and she built her freaking attitude. She's just herself. And in a podcast called A Music of Their Own, Nathalie is an amazing example of one driver of success, which is make your own thing. Make it like nothing else and own it.
[Music ends: "Resevwa Li”]
Majel Connery: On our next episode…
[Music starts: “When Syringa Falls”]
Wu Fei: One thing that doesn't change me is there's nothing will get between me and my happiness. Even like tomorrow I die. I'm the. Happiest person that. I feel like, wow. I've lived a very fulfilling life.
Majel Connery: My conversation with Wu Fei, Chinese-American composer and master of the Guzheng. That's A Music of Their Own from CapRadio. Thank you for listening.
[Music ends: “When Syringa Falls”]
[Theme Music: "We Need a Room," Sky Creature]
A Music of Their Own is a CapRadio production. Interviews were engineered and produced by me, Majel Connery and edited by Kevin Doherty. Paul Conley mastered the mix. Sally Shilling is our executive producer with production assistance from Jen Picard. Chris Hagan is our digital editor. Chris Bruno is in charge of marketing. Our designs were created by Marissa Espiritu. Renee Thompson is our digital projects manager and our social media is run by Emmy Gilbert and Emily Zentner. The theme song for A Music of Their Own is called “We Need a Room,” and it's by my band Sky Creature. You can find the song and Sky Creature on all major audio platforms. Don't forget to follow a music of their own wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you're hearing, please leave us a rating and a review so others can find this podcast, too. To find out more about the guests on our podcast, go to the show notes or visit capradio.org/amusicoftheirown. Thanks for listening.
[Theme Music: "We Need a Room," Sky Creature]
